036 | Can I Get the Modified Pose, Please?! with Annica Lydenberg Artwork

Raising Kids & Running a Business

On Raising Kids & Running a Business host Kate Christy (designer + mom x3) talks with other mothers all about what it’s like to manage the mental load of motherhood while building a career and quite frankly how they’re keeping both the creativity and the kids alive. We have honest conversations about what we’re doing (or not doing) to chase our dreams, the lessons we’ve learned, sacrifices made, and permission slips we’re writing to pursue our version of success.And real talk. Moms get sh*t done. Which is why we’re also talking tools and mindset shifts we use to flip the script from overwhelmed and overworked to creating our own version of work/life balance. Whether you’re an entrepreneur running your own business or kicking it in corporate from 9-5. Inside these episodes you’ll find the whole truth—not just the highlight reel—about what it’s really like amidst the chaos of raising kids and building a career.

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Raising Kids & Running a Business

036 | Can I Get the Modified Pose, Please?! with Annica Lydenberg

January 29, 2025 • Kate Christy • Season 1 • Episode 36

In this episode, Kate Christy welcomes Annica Lydenberg, a lettering artist and mural painter from Brooklyn, New York.

Annica is the founder of Dirty Bandits, an award winning Brooklyn-based design studio delivering quality visual identity design, lettering and murals. Annica's work is fueled by her deep appreciation for typography, love of storytelling and a dedication to social good.

In this episode, Annica shares her unconventional journey from corporate life to a thriving freelance career, her transition into motherhood, and the lessons she’s learned about balancing creativity, parenting, and business.

She opens up about her challenges as a solo parent, financial pressures, and finding joy in embracing authenticity over perfection.

From painting murals to running her nonprofit, You Are Not Alone Murals, Annica’s story is a testament to resilience, adaptability, and creating opportunities in unconventional ways. She also discusses her latest creative venture, Noteworthy Life, which turns personal growth mantras into visual art.

Tune in to hear Annica’s reflections on her career pivots, the realities of parenting while freelancing, and her strategies for building a life that aligns with her values.

Highlights

The End of Corporate Life: Annica shares how job layoffs and personal setbacks led her to an unexpected freelance career.
Creative Pivots: Her journey from web design to analog typography and mural painting.
Balancing Motherhood and Work: Insights on parenting as a solo mom while running a creative business.
The Challenges of Pricing: Annica opens up about learning to value her work and advocate for fair compensation.
Finding Joy in Community Work: The impact of her nonprofit, You Are Not Alone Murals, on destigmatizing mental health conversations.
Managing Time and Mental Load: Hacks and habits to balance family, creativity, and life’s chaos.
Embracing Authenticity Over Acceptance: Choosing what aligns with her values instead of societal expectations.
Noteworthy Life Project: Transforming personal mantras into large-scale art that inspires introspection and growth.

Mentioned in the Show:

You Are Not Alone Murals

Connect with Annica Lydenberg online:

Connect with Kate Christy:

Kate Christy: Good morning, Annika. Welcome to the podcast. Good morning. Thanks for having me. I'm so excited. You're here before we put record. We were reminiscing on how long it's been since we've started conversations about having this recording session, so I'm finally glad that we are sitting here doing it today.

But before we jump into everything, I would like for you to just introduce yourself. Tell the listeners who you are, kind of give them the backstory, the stats, what you do for work, who your kids are, how many you have, what ages they are, all that good stuff.

Annica Lydenberg: Great, thank you. so name is Annika Leidenberg.

Kate Christy: I'm a lettering artist and mural painter from Brooklyn, New York. I have been freelance virtually my entire career. I am 45 now. I have one kiddo, his name is Jackson, and he is five years old and in kindergarten. yeah, I think So freelance your whole career. That's pretty much wild. Okay. So.

Because it feels like everyone, they start the career, the creative career, they're like, yeah, I got approved. Those people who told me I couldn't do this is a real job that I could do the real job or like, get a real job. Right? We kind of all sort of started that real job. so you just like dove in, you're like, I'm doing this myself.

Talk to me about that.

Annica Lydenberg: Yeah. It was not my choice. I wanted the real job. I graduated college in 2000 and back then you could get away with not having a cell phone and not having a computer. and that lasted five seconds before I needed a cell phone. But, I had a real job. I was very excited.

I was doing exactly that. I was proving like, I'm going to have this creative career and I'm going to do really well. And, I just wanted to go to work and do a good job and leave and get a paycheck. That was the dream. and that lasted about a year and a half. And then it was trying to remember which one happened first.

Yep. Pretty sure it was. I lost my job. They laid off. We went from a team of 45. They dwindled down to a team of three. I made it to like the very last round of cutoffs, but it's not like I didn't see it coming. so got laid off, and broke up with my boyfriend who I'd been living with and been with since college.

he broke up with me. so it was like, got fired, got dumped, and then September 11th. September 11th happened like, a week or two later, and I just remember waking up the next week and I was like, like to tap out now, please like. I need to go away. So, I booked a ticket to Australia because that was the furthest that I could go.

and I was like, I'm just going to go live by the beach and work in a coffee shop for a little while. I don't want to do this.so that was the end of my. Corporate career at 22.

Kate Christy: Didn't go as far as you thought it would.

Annica Lydenberg: Not quite. I had to buy a laptop. It was a whole new thing.

Kate Christy: Oh, wow. Well, sometimes getting that push out of the situation that you, thought was right for you.

Yeah. Thought was going to be it is a blessing in disguise, even though it doesn't feel like it or look like it at that time. And then, all three of those things on top of each other. Yeah, I'd be like. Yeah. check please. let's leave. Yeah.

Annica Lydenberg: And then I got to Australia and they're very good at coffee there.

And I was like, I'm not even qualified to be a barista here. I was like, such a reality check.

Kate Christy: So in your corporate job, was your job? Like, what did you actually do? What was the position that you were in? What, stuff were you doing in the job?

Annica Lydenberg: Well, this will be a very clear, I've already dated myself multiple times by sharing my age, but I was working in Flash because that was how we animated things on the web.

And I didn't know anything about it. I got the job. it, paid me more than I made. Ever in, I didn't make as much as I made at that first job again until I was like well into my thirties. Mm and I didn't even have the skill that they were hiring me for. It was, I worked on the WCW wrestling account.

Oh, wow. And I happened to have worked on a WCW mayhem video game website the summer before. And they were like, oh, you know who Sting is and who Goldberg is? You're hired. So I feel like I got hired based on my knowledge of like, the sort of lesser known wrestlers than I did on, actual design skills.

And then I bought a book on Flash, which I just had to read because again, it didn't own a computer. So I'm just like reading what to type on the computer in order to prepare for my first job. And then I sat next to a very nice guy named Steve and I just poked my head around the cubicle every day.

And I was like, Hey, Steve. I want to make this go from here to there. And do I need to So, yeah, I learned a lot I was working entirely in flash animation and they did something that was really sort of ahead of the time in 2000 and now it'd be totally normal. We did, content delivered through, like, a web portal, what would now be called an app, that corresponded with what you were watching on TV.

So we were banking on a couple things, which were a bit of a long shot at the time. You had to have a computer. You had to have a TV. They had to be in the same room, which was, like, not always the case. Right,

Kate Christy: yeah, there was a computer room in the houses back in the day, right?

Annica Lydenberg: The computer didn't go anywhere.

It had a place that it lived, and it might not live near the TV, which also lived in a specific place. and then we had to optimize all of the graphics for 56k modems, in case people were dialing up to get on the internet.

Kate Christy: Oh, wow. Wow.

Annica Lydenberg: So, definitely ahead of its time, and, not that exciting, but Now it would make a lot more sense because so we had certain accounts that were different TV shows.

So the TV show that I worked on was WCW Mayhem. Mm hmm. so we would make content to correspond with like what you were seeing live on TV, like when certain wrestlers would come out, there would be quizzes about them or facts or like these little animated cutouts that I made with whatever. I don't even think.

Kate Christy: PNG files existed at the time, so everything is like GIFs with these terrible, ugly, cut out files. it was a thing. in this experience, when you got out of it, were you like, I am running as far away as possible from this. Thing or were you like, oh, this is the future. This is exciting I want to get further in bed with this type of work

Annica Lydenberg: No, I wanted to do the like typical path for designers and like the early 2000s was first you start a t shirt company because that's oh, no.

No, sorry first you design flyers for bands Right. Shows. That's like number one is you design the flyers for the bands. And then number two is you start a t shirt line. And then number three is you start a magazine

Kate Christy: and

Annica Lydenberg: I like, I did the flyer. So when I got to Australia and I couldn't get a job as a barista cause I was wildly unqualified for that.

I did get a job working off the books at this print shop that did all of the flyers for all of the clubs in Sydney. So. That was super fun. There was lots of bevel and emboss, filters going on, lots of like, radiant blurs coming out from things. I did all of the things with type that my design teacher would never let me do.

I was like, I can do it all. You're

Kate Christy: like,

watch me. You say only three typefaces? Well, here you go. I know the rules, and now I'm breaking the rules. Yes, yes.

Annica Lydenberg: so I did that, and then I started a t shirt label when I was there, which is actually where we came up with the name Dirty Bandits, and then I came back after a couple years, a couple years I went back and forth, and then I came back and I was like, hmm, all of the rest of you seem to be progressing in your, career paths here in New York, perhaps I should stay a while and partake in that idea.

So I did not do the magazine thing. but everyone was just hiring in web stuff. I couldn't get much print work. it didn't really exist. So I got stuck doing websites and banner ads for another quite a few years until about like 2010. 2011 and then I decided I desperately wanted to shift into typography and do more hand drawn type.

So, got rid of all my web clients, scaled back, you know, I had had some people working for me, scaled back to just me. and sort of started my lettering career as a solo freelancer. Yeah, like 10 years after I got laid off.

Kate Christy: Yeah, well, you went out, you spread your wings, you made some wild flyers. Yes. So, coming back to New York, did you grow up in New York?

was that home for you always?

Annica Lydenberg: No, I grew up in Boston. My mom grew up in New York and my grandmother was still here, so it was where we spent most of our, like, vacation family time was down in New York, so it felt very familiar and very much, like, where I knew I was going to end up when I graduated.

Kate Christy: Yeah. So you go run away to Sydney for a little while, you come back and you're like, okay, time to get serious. Yeah. Did it feel exciting? Did it feel daunting? Did it, like, kind of talk through that moment in time? Because I know, like, making big leaps feels like this very shiny, exciting thing. As an entrepreneur, But then, like, the reality of it is, like, it can be terrifying, too, so talk through, like, where you are in that moment in time.

Annica Lydenberg: I think I'm a weird combo, or I guess unfavorable combo of, I both love business, I love thinking about business, I love talking about business, but I don't have a strong entrepreneurial spirit. I want someone else to do it and I would like to support them in it. Um, so doing my own thing was never exciting.

I was like, I see all the ways in which I'm doing it wrong. And yet I am somehow Not fixing them. the first time someone asked me about my pricing, I'm thinking about what apartment I was in, so how old I must have been. I was like maybe 27, 28. And he said to me, how often does a client come back to you and say, no, that price is too high, I just can't.

And I looked at him like he was insane. I was like, that's never happened to me. And he was like, yeah. So you might want to consider perhaps that your prices are too low and it took me like another 14 years to even begin to start to actually execute on that. what does it feel like to send someone a quote that you think they're going to say no to?

Kate Christy: I

Annica Lydenberg: had never done this before. I was like, well, what do I think their budget is? Can I come in a little bit below that? Like I had never. done pricing right, but I could watch myself doing it wrong. So being an entrepreneur was not particularly fun for me or what I wanted, but I did really love working with people that were new in their business.

so working with small businesses was really exciting. My clients were always really exciting. Like I always really liked who I was working with and I loved that it changed, Felt like having a big friend group instead of being like, you're stuck with this one person.

so yeah, I think that part of it was always exciting. And the fact that it was malleable and could change as time went on was always really great. I'm like, Oh, I decided I want to do more work like this. Let me do a personal project that shows that I can do it and then share that. And then just because I'm also bad at marketing, sit around and wait for people to find it and then ask me to do it.

I would say when I got back and I was trying to sort of readjust, I would periodically go through, I also like stability and I don't like debt. So those two things also make being freelance very much not a great fit for me. Every maybe three years I would have a, crisis of, oh my God, I need to get a full-time job, and I would apply and I would not get any jobs.

And like the longer that whole process went on, finally I was. I spent a couple of years in San Francisco in like my mid 30s, early to mid 30s, and when I came back, I was like, alright, I gotta get serious. Before I turned 40, I needed a career. Like, if I'm gonna get a job in an agency, like, I should do it now.

And I went out for lunch with a friend who had always been in the agency world. And he just said, can I be totally honest? And I was like, that'd be great. I'm not looking for anything else. And he said, no, one's going to know what to do with you. He said, you're too senior to be a senior designer and you have zero agency experience.

So no one can hire you to be an art director or a creative director. He's like, I don't like, there's no place for you in the agency world. I was like. Noted. Wow. Um, yeah. So, I'm proud that I've made it, and that I've survived, but it was not particularly always my preferred path.

Kate Christy: Mm hmm. Yeah, I feel like we're a little bit, kindred spirits in the, we absolutely love being creative and being with those new businesses and getting in there and being a part of that excitement that's.

starting something, going in on your dreams, but then when it comes to running the business, it's like, nah, this is not my favorite. And you can see it like you were saying, like you can see it yourself you could give that advice to anyone and you can see it and like you probably do it for your clients or did it for your clients.

Right? You're like, this is what you need to do. This is what you need to do. And then you're like, look at yourself. You're like, no, I'm not even following my own advice. Like what? What? So you said that, right. You were working in web doing ads and things like that, and then you transitioned to a lot of analog work, right?

That's what the space that you're in now. And so like, that's like another big transition in career. It feels like, and I know that a lot of people have that, hesitancy or like, I'm kind of in that space right now. Like, Ooh, I'd like to dabble in this. And it's like, is that, quote unquote, a smart business decision because it feels like such a departure from.

Um, and that whole, I have to give up on my clients or like tell them I'm not doing this anymore and then go find the new clients who are want the thing that you're now going to be offering. So you made another pivot there. I want to hear a little bit about that.

Annica Lydenberg: Yeah, I thought was somehow easier because.

I was sick of it. I just didn't want to do it. And I was like, ah, I don't have to. So, I was stepping away from something that like was not hugely financially successful to begin with. I wasn't giving up. I was giving up a long client list, but because of my aforementioned problem of not charging enough money, I wasn't making a lot of money.

So it wasn't like, I was going and I did have more responsibility then because I did have like a couple people working for me. And I was like, I like your job, your job looks secure. I'm paying you better than I'm paying me and you get to do the creative stuff. And I'm stuck sending proposals and like pretending to be the accounts department at dirty bandits and following up on invoices.

Kate Christy: Yeah.

Annica Lydenberg: so. It was easier to do that pivot because I wanted out, versus losing my job where I was like, but could I maybe just be secure for a little bit longer? Like, I wasn't going from a place of security to a place of insecurity. It was all insecure. It was more just choosing to be insecure while learning something new.

Kate Christy: Mm

Annica Lydenberg: hmm.

Kate Christy: Yeah, and it's like, why not do something that I'm excited about and it's fun? Yeah. And be in the same situation. Yeah. So, along, like, in this timeline of your career, when did your son come into the mix? So, like, was this, where in the mix?

Annica Lydenberg: Pretty late. I didn't get pregnant till I was 40. I had him at 41.

so I at that point was, again, that pivot was also not as hard for me because I was bored. I was like, well, work is work. Like I was doing it and I liked it, but I was like, I could do something else. You know, like I was ready for a new challenge. I really, really. don't seem to want to sit in a place of, I say that I want security and then I'm like, but as soon as things are not challenging, I'm like, what could I add to make this harder?

I know I could learn a new skill. I know I could birth a human. Like it's just new things. I mean, I really like learning and learning how to parent has been very, very, very exciting. end. harder than bending neon glass, which I thought was very hard. At some point I was like, I want to learn something new.

I'm going to take a neon class. And that was too hard, but parenting is definitely harder, but way better payoff. Mm

Kate Christy: hmm. Yeah, definitely. So in the time that you had your son, were you, because a lot of your work that you do now is You're going and doing murals. You're actually in physical spaces doing things, which is kind of different than having a home base or like working from home or going to an office and like juggling care and schedules and things like that.

Like, kind of give us a little peek into the logistics that went into place with, having this career where, your schedules could be all over the place, depending on the type of work that you're doing.

Annica Lydenberg: Well, so I had, I was still painting into my pregnancy up until I was like maybe five and a half, six months pregnant.

And then I was like, that's enough of that. and I was happy to take a break. I was happy to have that flexibility. But, my son was born in November of 2019. Ooh, okay. Uh huh. So about the time that people would be ready to go back to work and be in person places, nobody was at work and in person anyplace.

So, I had a built in buffer of like, in a weird way. I didn't have the FOMO that I think a lot of new moms might have, where they're like, Oh my gosh, I'm missing out on this. Like, people are doing this. People are going here. Like, work is happening. Like, everyone was stuck at home, just like me, with my new baby.

And I was like, Oh, you're all available for a Zoom call? All of a sudden, it like, didn't matter that I couldn't show up to meetings. I was like, No one's at meetings! So, that being freelance and having a kid is, everyone likes to complain how bad maternity leave is in this country.

Well, Dirty Bandits has terrible maternity leave. So it was stressful, trying to figure out what kind of work I could get where I had some flexibility. But, a lot of what I share is images of me painting or like the painting process because that's what people like to see, but like the percentage of time that I actually spend on a ladder with a brush in my hand.

Not like even for a mural job. There's designing it ahead of time. There's the prep work There's all this stuff that does have some flexibility in it So, you know, it made traveling impossible and it made long days on site very hard, but it didn't Entirely decimate my ability to go paint murals. Mm

Kate Christy: hmm.

Annica Lydenberg: And then at

Kate Christy: that point, it's kind of like oh this little

Annica Lydenberg: vacation Yes. Yes. I mean my first mural back was maybe about Five blocks away from my house, and I left after a couple hours to go home and breastfeed and then I went back Back to the job and I was like, I gotta leave because it's time for me to go pump like, I definitely started with a small radius Where could return home but it was a hard, messy time for everyone.

and, I was solo parenting starting when my kid was 10 weeks old. And my parents immediately moved to New York. My mom had just finished her 45 year long career teaching.and so I did have help from my mom. And when, my kid was old enough that he was doing two naps a day,

I was with him up until he went down for his first nap. My mom came over right after he went to sleep. I went to work, and then I could work from the beginning of the first nap to the end of the second nap. And she had him in between. So it was like the maximum amount of time that I could have at work, and the minimum amount of time that I was asking for, like, actual physical, caring for my child.

It was just like the be present for when he wakes up, And stuff like that. So then I would come back at the end of the second nap. And so we did that for quite some time until he was about 15 months old. And then he transitioned to one nap. And I was like, bye bye time for daycare. Yeah. and it was just hard, you know, there was still a lot of fear and anxiety in New York around.

COVID at that time. so even starting daycare, I don't know how much sooner I would have done it than 15 months had we been living in a different time. but it would have been a fair bit sooner, but I'm grateful that it wasn't, yeah, it happened the way it happened.

and I'm glad there was so much time with him, but working during that time was pretty hard. And I was definitely trying to figure out how do I pivot to have more jobs where I can be in my pajamas on my couch after my kid goes to sleep and be, working.

Kate Christy: One thing that, I really struggled with was balancing like the time that I had available when kids were small like that.

And you were kind of juggling that watching them, keeping them. At home with you and then plugging work in the little time slots. it was like, okay logistically I know I have this time but then I would like fool myself every single morning saying, okay, when they go to bed at seven, I'm going to work.

And at seven o'clock, I was like, I'm going to bed also.

Annica Lydenberg: Yes, Totally. I think it took me, I've listened to a bunch of your podcast episodes I like that there's parents at different stages. I know you. There's a lot of parents who have like young, young ones, but I was listening to one with a parent who had older ones and talking about, like all the time that you get back later and theit's sort of hard when you're in it to remember, it's not always going to be like this, I'm always trying to find a hack for how do I do this and how do I do that?

And it's just like, or you could just be patient, just be patient and wait. And like, there will come a time. but I, can only equate it to, and it's only because this is your podcast that I feel like I can share this. I can only relate it to, like, what happens to your, bra size before pregnancy and after pregnancy.

It's just like, you think you've reached a new norm and you're like, okay, this is just what my body looks like now. And then two years later, it's like, surprise, still changing. And you're like, oh, I didn't know this would, I don't know. I just feel like There have been different things that have changed in my brain, you know, and there's like the physical exhaustion But then there's also the mental exhaustion that I feel like has almost prevented me more from Being able to capitalize on all those little tiny moments.

That's like just now starting to lift Mm hmm. I'm like, oh I forgot that I would have access to these little buckets of time because I just stopped with the buckets I'm like, okay Things that are going to happen, like I try and do things like I will leave dishes in the sink the entire day, and I don't put anything I leave things out.

I leave dishes out. I don't put anything away until after my kid goes to bed because I'm too tired at that point to do any of the work related things, but I'm too anal to go to bed with things still out. So it's like just trying to figure out what can I put off to those moments where I thought that maybe I could do work and I've now accepted that I cannot.

Kate Christy: Yeah, and that's such a good point that, all work is not equal in energy and mental exertion. Like, that's such a good hack. Wow. I'm gonna start doing that. Maybe I don't already do that, though. Like, I have adopted this, Where I just let the house go to hell, and I take like a chunk of hours to fix it all, and I'm like,

Annica Lydenberg: I did that one time a week.

Yes, yes. Oh, I've now put all admin stuff happens on Mondays. Because if I let admin, and like, we're talking, Scheduling stuff for my kid, we're talking, you know, like researching camps, like all the things that are always, you're like, oh, this whole other job, scheduling appointments for myself, going to doctor's appointments for myself, taking care of anything in the house.

Like, I also only purchase things on Mondays now. I'm like, I just can't, I can't think about like Mondays. I will do only. Stuff I don't want to do on Mondays and then the second Monday is over. I'm like, yes, it'll wait till next Monday

Kate Christy: Yeah, and that frees you from carrying around that mental weight of ooh Let me just like go do this real quicker Like even though that pang of anxiety or or whatever that you get when you're like, oh crap.

I have to do this Oh, I forgot to do that. That's such Look at this. Hacks on top of hacks, people. Just

Annica Lydenberg: put it on the Monday list. And then every once in a while, school is closed on Monday. And I'm like, we've now just messed up my entire life. Those are moments where I'm like, nope, nope. I didn't plan for this.

Kate Christy: Going into the new year, my kids, they were supposed to go back on a Tuesday. And then we had snow, which we We're in Virginia, and we do not have snow that sticks hardly at all anymore. And it, yeah, like, stuck to the ground for a week. And I was like, what is this? Like, this is wild. But they were out of school for two days, when they were supposed to be going back to school after break.

And I'm like, okay, we go. Like, we're getting back in the swing of things. Like, we're doing things, Kate. And then it was like, just kidding. Like, you're not doing things yet. And then they were two hours delayed the rest of the week. And then This is week two of, getting shit back together and my daughter's sick for two days.

And so I'm like, okay, maybe like February is when we're gonna like get back in the swing of things. But yeah, it's like you don't really realize how much of a wrench that, things like that can throw in your, planning your day and, but it is good to have those times. Set aside to just turn that part of your brain or your to do list or whatever off.

Yeah, so that you can focus on everything else. I'm gonna do the shopping one that yeah one day because I will go and I will add things to the cart. And then I'll go back and then I'll go back and like, I don't even want to think about the mental energy that I've spent on should I buy this? Should I not buy this?

Like,

Annica Lydenberg: I don't want to think about that.

Yeah, no, I, I felt like I was, Not even hitting purchase, but I was online shopping and abandoning carts as like some form of like, I don't know what it's called, but was becoming a vice for me. It was becoming some sort of like indulgence. I'm just gonna pretend and then I'm gonna close this and never actually, and I was like, I just wasted an hour choosing eight pairs of sneakers on Nordstrom Rack and like, in reality, I'm not buying new sneakers until these have holes in them.

So why? so just to try and force me to do one of the other things from my list or my one New Year's resolution is to read a book, just one, just one, I'm not going to go crazy. Let's be realistic. I haven't read a book in at least five years. I listen to audio books a lot while I work, while I walk the dog, that counts.

I feel like such a faker when I say I was reading this book and I'm like, okay, well someone was reading it to me.

Kate Christy: This is what mothers have to do. And this is like, this works two fold people. Okay. Because you get to put the earbuds in. And kind of take a step back from whatever chaos is happening in your house and get to read a book at the same time.

I count it. I've read lots of books on Audible. Yes.

Annica Lydenberg: think the difference is that If you're reading the book physically in your hand, you can't be multitasking, and I am always multitasking. So for me, committing to read one book is almost like saying I'm committing to not multitasking for like, However, I'm a slow reader.

So like, whatever it is, 12 hours during the course of this year, I promise I will not multitask. because I don't think I take everything in very well when I'm listening to the audiobook. Sometimes it's easier than others, but, yeah, there's something about, suppose, more what I'm committing to is.

To treat reading as leisure, not as either information or entertainment.

Kate Christy: Or escapism. Yes.

Annica Lydenberg: Like I'm doing. Yes. I'm like, boop, bye family, put my earbuds in. What are you listening to now? Do you have an audio book going?

Kate Christy: Um, I have been listening to, Fantasy Smut. yeah, so I've been doing some of that.

But I've also been reading. a book that my mom gave me, actual physical book. I like have four going on at the same time right now. so I've been reading the Throne of Glass series, or re reading, or re listening, if I'm really telling the truth to that one. and I've been reading a book that my mom gave me for Christmas called The Cabin at the End of the Train.

it's like a real, story about a guy who just like takes this train to get away, which I'm like, ooh, this is a fun activity. To like book a weekend, long weekend train ride and like you're just not going anywhere. You're just riding the train to and fro. and the people that he meets in the conversations that he have and the impact that it has.

so I've been reading that and I've got two on the, to do list that I'm probably gonna botch the name. Think Again, Adam Grant. Is that what it is? And Moonbound by I don't know who but those are on my to be read list currently and I have the physical physical stacks of those and I like will flip flop between books and Podcasts.

Yeah, but when I'm working I can only listen to music that doesn't have any words in it So I'll listen to like a lot of movie scores and things like that. while I'm working because if I'm coding or if I'm writing something, it's just like when I'm designing, like purely designing something, I can listen to music with words in it or a podcast.

so I like flip flop between listening to books, listening to podcasts,and then like music consumption, like the actual playlist that I have on. Spotify is embarrassing. I've been listening to the same like 100 songs for the last five years, probably more than that. so I don't know anything about new music, which is bad, but

Annica Lydenberg: it's fun.

I like what I like. Yes. Yes, I think, I love it when Spotify gives you your, like, wrapped thing for the year. And a few years ago it was like, your most played artist was Ja Rule. And I was like, you know, 2022. Still, still strong. Still strong.

Kate Christy: Aye, okay. This is like, ding, ding, ding. I was listening to Mel Robbins podcast, and she was talking about music, the science behind songs, and that, like, moment in time, similar to smells, right?

Like, you smell that, you're like, oh, it smells like the classroom with, crowns and glue and stuff. Like, it takes you back to that moment in time, right? and songs, like, the same thing in your, mood, where you listen to songs. I think there is a certain window of time that's, like, early teens, maybe, that's, like, the most formative time for Songs that have, like, a huge impact on you, mentally, emotionally, like, when you hear them again.

which is, like, really sad if I think about, like, the music that was, the NSYNC Britney Spears era. Oh, but those songs come on, I'm like, yes, baby, like, I'm feeling good, right? It's embarrassing, but. so listening to those songs like can boost your mood, elevate your mood. so like, yeah, like we go back to those songs time and time again because they just make us feel so good.

Annica Lydenberg: I know, I know. I'm on Spotify now. I hope it's okay for me to say this on all the platforms. And I haven't had, like, Apple Music or iTunes since, like, 2013. But when I plug my phone into my boyfriend's car, it's, like, synced up to Apple Play, and it just started playing iTunes.

Which, apparently now, since I don't have Apple Music, it just opens up with all of The songs that I purchased from iTunes prior to 2013, which has been like the most amazing time warp on the planet. I went down like such a deep dive. I was like, Oh my God, this song. And then this song and then this song.

And then a song came on that I think I had picked as a throwback back then, which was when I was in like 7th or 8th grade. There was this song by Candyman called Knockin Boots. And man oh man, it is the funniest song on the planet. Funny, serious, I don't know. anyway, so that came on the other day in the car and it was one of those, like, I know literally every word to this song without having to hear, my, like, 12, 13 year old self was, like, right there in that car enjoying that song so

Kate Christy: much.

Isn't that wild how we remember? that stuff is stored. We have it in there. Like, it's taking up space in our brain. is wild to me. usually my Spotify rap is like the songs that my kids make me play over and over and over again. Yeah. Or, the Man from Snowy River soundtrack. That is the one that I listen to time and time again when I'm coding.

And it's like, you're a top artist. You're a top song. I was like, yep, I know. We know. We've been here. We've been here for the last five years. Yeah.

Annica Lydenberg: I definitely blame Jackson for this year's Spotify rap. I was like, no, no, no. That's not me. that Welcome to New York song from Taylor Swift. That's not me.

That's not me. Even though it's a number one played song. yeah, definitely, I've heard that there's a way you can set it to like skip, like he has his own playlist on my Spotify. but I heard there's a way that you can tell it to eliminate that from your Discover Weekly, but you can't, hide from that when it comes to your raft at the end of the year.

Kate Christy: That's funny. I'm gonna have to, because I had an iPod, I had purchased songs, I'm gonna have to go do this, excavation as well. This sounds fun.

Annica Lydenberg: It's so fun! But yeah, what you were saying about that it occupies space in your brain, I'm like, and this is why I can only do admin on Mondays.

Because the rest of the week, my brain is filled with songs that I listen to on repeat when I was 12 years old.

Kate Christy: Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Only essentials. Yes. That's funny. you said something earlier that I wanted to circle back to, but I can't remember what it was now. Maybe it'll come to me.

Okay. So your son's five. That means he's in kindergarten. Right. And like you sent him to childcare, which that was me. I was like six, the first one, 10 months. You got to get out of the house the second one, six months, you got to get out of the house.

so I'm a big advocate for childcare, just like creating that separation. if it's available to you, if you can afford it, like that's a whole other conversation. Right. so your son's five now and he's in public school or is on a regular school schedule. Yeah. So at that point, was that like a light at the end of the tunnel?

moment for you to be like, okay, like we're moving into this next stage of running a business and being a parent where I feel like things are opening up. I think that I'm going to be able to like pick those things up again that felt too hard or too big or too scary. To, bring into the mix when everything's just so crazy with scheduling and taking care of kid and taking care of self.

if that was part of your routine at that moment in time,

Annica Lydenberg: yeah, mean, definitely. No, being on a school schedule has not helped me in this. it is a nightmare. Yes, thought that's what was going to happen. And then I was like, oh, Oh, okay. School is closed one day this week. Okay. Oh, and then two days next week?

Oh, but then surely you'll go back for five days the next week. No, wait! Only four days the next week, too? Like, no, it's not I mean, I have,I did better this year at immediately putting in the entire school schedule into my calendar and blocking out days so I'm not scheduling things on them because I definitely scheduled a two day mural festival during, April vacation last year and I was like, well, certainly didn't think that through, this is going to cost me a lot more.

so yeah, I don't know, I mean, daycare was open like, all but six holidays a year. and that is, not school. So it's just a lot of like finding after school activities, reassessing how many do we want to do? How many is too many? How many can I afford? Like, what are the different things there?

What does he like? If he doesn't like it, then it's finding a new one and then it's every time school is closed, is it better for me to take the day off and do something fun with him in New York? Would he have more fun if he went to, like, an all day thing? and, yeah, so it's, a lot of work.

It's like a whole new job that I didn't have before. So in that respect, no. But I like his school and I love that he's in school. So it's not like it's a bummer. he's doing the thing where he's learning how to read and he's doing math problems constantly. Like the walk to school is my favorite thing on the planet.

It's like a 15 minute walk to school and either the entire time he's quizzing me on math problems, which I love. We just do equations the whole way to school. Or, he's talking about things that, like, I don't even know where they have come from. On our way to school the other day, he says to me, Mom, I've been born 12 times.

Cool. Tell me more. was the last time you were born? Were you always born here? Was I always your mom? Like, before, where were you before that? I was in the galaxy. I'm like, this is amazing. My kid has discovered reincarnation all, all on his own and is just having a field day with it. So, I love that he's going to school, that he's learning different things and, all the fun stuff that we get to talk about from that for sure.

But, like, does it free up my schedule? Definitely not.

Kate Christy: No, you're like, take me back to the good old days of daycare where they ran that like a ship. Like, they were open regardless.

Annica Lydenberg: Yes. And also, totally flexible on drop off time. Like, any time before nine is fine. Like, we had our, specific time that we were supposed to, but no one's, like, making you go to the office and sign a piece of paper if you, you drop off late.

So yeah, there was a lot less. pressure around it then.I mean, I love connecting with more families and I know that at some point we'll get to the point where he'll have play dates that don't involve me. And I know like certain parents arrive at that sooner than others. And we were hanging out with, some friends of his who are twins and the parents were like, Oh, is it cool if they, and Jackson just invites people to our house.

Literally every day, everywhere we go. Like, we're at the park, there's some kid who definitely doesn't speak English, they have played together for hours, he's like, can we invite so and so over to our house? I was like, we're in the middle, like, it's just like, he's meeting people left and right and inviting everyone over to our house within, like, 30 minutes, and I love it so much, but so he invites, the twins over to our house.

And the parent was just like, cool, I'll come pick them up at six. And I was like, what? What? I'm like, I'm a single mom with just the one kid, so I'm used to it just being like him and I plus playdate expansion. But I was like, me and three kids, like, I admire so much what you do on a regular basis. I was like, this is just as scary as having the first one for the first time.

I'm like, okay, I got three of these, they're on scooters, I don't know who stops at corners and we're gonna navigate, like, the 15 minute scoot back to our house. totally fine, but, yeah, one day there will be playdates that don't involve me, and that's cool.

Kate Christy: Mm hmm. My rule when kids come over here, and it's usually my cousins, or my kids cousins, My brother's kids who come to our house most often.

I think we've had one. child come who was not a family member to our house. Yeah. And I have a 10 year old, a seven year old and a three year old. So we're like not into play dates at all. It seems, but I tell my brother and my sister in law, I'm like, they will be alive. I was like, but they will not be enriched or like, I'm not gonna put together activities.

Or I was like, they will be cared for. They'll be fed. They'll be watered. They'll be alive, but there's not going to be any enrichment happening on my part.

Annica Lydenberg: I mean, it's fun to see. The kids play together to begin with. I don't think they're looking, like, they don't have trouble coming up with activities. It's just like, hey, let me show you this game. Hey, do you want to show so and so your, acorn collection? I mean, literally, there's like a box of acorns here.

Kate Christy: Oh, that's funny.

Annica Lydenberg: I like to measure my kid's age by what he's collecting. I'm like, we have now, he is now no longer, in the rocks in the pocket age. And he is now tape on everything age.

Kate Christy: Mm hmm. We've been there.

Annica Lydenberg: It's, I'm like, oh, this is just what five looks like. It looks like there's tape on all of the furniture.

There's tape on the walls. Last night I was yelling at the dog for ripping holes in my new rug. He's like taken to digging in my new rug and Jackson says, It's cool. I'm going to put tape on it and I'll make it beautiful. I was like, great. There's now tape on my rug.

Kate Christy: Oh, I love that. I love how innocent and pure and just wonderful that is.

Like, yes, in the moment you're probably like, oh my gosh, like my new rug is ruined. And the kid's like, no problem. I got it mom. don't worry about it. And that's just so sweet. And like with the inviting kids over, like just how open and honest, it's such a wonderful thing. You kind of go through that phase.

You're like, Oh, I don't want this to go away. Please don't go away. Please don't go away. my, middle child, he went through the tape phase big time and my mother purchased him one of those tape dispensers and a whole bunch of rolls. So he was going to town on everything. He was like, I have my tools, I have my own device here.

I'm just gonna go tape all of it up. I also saw I think it was like a meme or something that was like, you don't realize that when you become a parent, you have different kinds of rocks. You have like, indoor rocks, you have porch rocks, you have car rocks.

Annica Lydenberg: We just moved this summer, and our new apartment has a porch, and there's definitely things, so I'm like, oh, that's a stick porch. That's a porch stick. Like, yes, you can bring the stick into the house, but it has to go out on the porch.

Kate Christy: Yeah, yeah, it's funny how they collect things. My oldest did this thing where he would fixate on, like, you're talking about, like, having, like, the acorns, or, like, the tape face, or whatever.

Yeah. Like, he had these, object phases, which was really funny. he would have his Lego configuration and it was a certain configuration. It was like a certain, like four or five Legos. They were those big Duplo ones. Yeah. And. If he did not have that, and he didn't have it in it's correct formation, he was unhappy about the situation.

And it was just like, he went through that phase, and then all of a sudden it was like, oh, I don't need you anymore. And then he went on to something else, but it was interesting watching him, because there was all these, this like mechanical element involved in it, where it was like the configuration of Legos, or it wasspecific, like, truck with the trailer with the specific car that went with it, right?

So it's always funny watching those, transitions and, the things that they get fixated on. one thing you said about, like, walking to school with him and that time. Yeah. for us, that is bedtime. Where it's like that pocket of time where you just, like, there's nothing else that you can do, right?

Like, the walking to school is like, okay, we're talking, we're thinking, right? Like, and you kind of get into the habit of that. And for us, it's bedtime when my kids say those, like, off the wall things and, my oldest, he was talking about, the impending explosion of the universe. He was like, one day we're all just gonna explode into nothing.

And I was like, probably. And that was that. He's like, I know things. This is gonna happen.

Annica Lydenberg: Sometimes I feel like they see things so much more clearly.

Kate Christy: But they don't, yeah, they don't have this, Oh, what am I gonna add to my shopping cart? Oh, I've got this bill. Oh, I've got this doctor's appointment.

Oh, I've got this. Yeah, it's just like such a light they don't have that mental load. They just, are in the moment and focused on what they want to be focused on at that moment in time. And it's admirable. And I wish I could do that as an adult.

Annica Lydenberg: I love that you mentioned Mel Robbins earlier.

I've been deep diving, on the Mel Robbins podcast for sure. And she had on someone recently who was talking about. We're talking about like a shift that middle aged women experience and he said that for the first time they may start to choose authenticity over acceptance. Because they're tired. And I was just, it made my brain explode.

I was like, oh my gosh, how many times have I chosen authenticity over acceptance? And when I hear my kids saying these things that are sort of wild and out there and I'm like, oh, he's not worried about how this sounds to someone else. He's just saying it. It's like that idea of like, I can see this.

You're choosing, I mean, sort of more like Subconsciously choosing authenticity over acceptance, and that is one thing that I'm trying to focus on a little bit more. It's like, oh, am I just doing this because I feel like this is Whether it's, like, the path of least resistance or, gonna cause the least amount of drama, whatever it is, versus, like, an authentic, I don't know, I feel like, am definitely feeling me, I'm tired of choosing acceptance all the time, like.

Kate Christy: I love that. I'm gonna have to listen to that episode. I haven't gotten there yet, but yeah, I've been on a Mel Robbins kick. My mom for the last, like, three months, like, I was listening to my friend, Mel, and I was like, okay, but,yeah, never hopped on it. And then someone sent me an episode of her on someone else's podcast, and I was like, oh, It's time to get on the Mel Robbins train.

Here we go. so glad I did. I've enjoyed every, second of it, but yeah, that choosing authenticity over acceptance is huge. And, but I think that the acceptance bit, like you, hit on it was that the path of least resistance, right? Like we do things because it feels easier. It feels like this is, more passive and not going to cause a conflict or not going to ruffle any feathers.

and that can feel easier in the moment and then once you, kind of do the easy, easy route, easy route, easy route, you realize like, Oh, I've like painted myself into this corner with like all of these feelings and all of these situations that just didn't fill me up or didn't, impact me in a positive way.

It impacted me in a negative way. And it's like, what for really, like, if you kind of pull it away and you're like, why, why, why was I behaving in that way?

Annica Lydenberg: And is it actually easier for you or is it just easier for everyone else? I think that was the other big thing where I was like, Oh, I'm not doing this cause it's easier for me.

I'm doing it because it's easier for everyone else. And that makes me feel better. this need to constantly solve problems or, you know, like not. I listened to something else that was, this is the problem with not reading, is that I don't remember who said anything. But I'm like, I've heard these brilliant things by people that I really wish that I could credit with the brilliant things.

but someone was talking about how the world is made up of, askers and guessers. And askers are people that just ask for whatever they want. And they're fully prepared to hear no. They're just like, what, the people that can just say, doesn't hurt to ask. Meanwhile, for me, like, asking is terrifying.

And I'm definitely a guesser. And a guesser is someone who only asks for something if they are almost certain that the answer is going to be yes. So, Then I also then have a hard time saying no because when people ask me for things I think that I'm obliged to say yes, and it's very very hard for me to say no It's hard for me to get in the mindset of like well, maybe they just asked because why not?

Like, not? Yeah, you're like, they asked

Kate Christy: because they've made a calculated decision that I have a really high percentage of hearing a yes.

Annica Lydenberg: Yes. Like, they may just say like, Hey, do you think that you could paint this like really large mural for 2, 000? And I'm like, Oh my God, they think that that mural is only worth 2, 000 or they think that like my time is only worth that or that's what their budget is.

It doesn't occur to me. They might just be asking for the hell of it. because it doesn't hurt to ask. Meanwhile, then I have to say no, and then I feel terrible saying no, and I feel uncomfortable with saying no. And it's like, so sometimes the path of least resistance is just to say yes, but that's not making it easier for me.

It's making it easier for them.

Kate Christy: Yeah.

Annica Lydenberg: so that's the other thing that I'm trying to sort of wonder is like, I don't know how much. Why don't I worry about making things easier for myself in the same way that I worry about making them easier for everyone else? And mm-hmm . Like no one else is out there trying to make things easier for me.

like, that's my job, , that's my job, and I'm not showing up for that job.

Kate Christy: Yeah. I think that we can easily, especially being a mom, get in a habit of making sure everyone's okay. Yeah, right. Like taking care of other people, making sure. just because, that's what we're kind of hardwired to do for our children and then, but I think about it, I'm like, I don't always make it easy on them.

I don't always make it okay for them. You know, I try to put not necessarily like not put challenges in front of them, but also not make things just like, easily pave the way for them. it's like, I think I said this on the last episode, but my middle child was like, can you give me some juice?

I'm like, you are seven. You're capable. You can get juice for yourself, you know, like, so just making sure that everyone's okay. And everyone's taken care of. I think that maybe that's a female trait too, but definitely mom, like, just wanting to make, everything okay. And I think that we get a hit off of that, right, is like, Oh, I'm taking care of these people.

Like that makes me feel good. So there is this confusion too, that you can come into with like, well, I felt good. Doing this good thing for this person, but I'm also beating myself up because I did say yes to the 2, 000 mural that I shouldn't have, but like they have a fabulous mural and they're so happy with it and it's wonderful, right?

Like, you're like crossing your own wires in the process.

Annica Lydenberg: Yeah, it's true. You get a lot more out of interactions than just the actual, like. You're right, act of painting a mural is more than just the check that I receive for the mural. so it is hard to separate those things and be like, okay, well, if I get all these other good things, then it's okay if this one thing doesn't come through, but yeah,

I've been trying, particularly around finances, like as a single mom, I felt like the only time that I started to be able to stand up for like, no, no, no, this is what my rate should be, was after I had my kid and I like, was just like, well, I now need to make an appropriate amount of money, not an exuberant amount of money, but like an appropriate amount of money for my services because of being a mom and being the sole provider in my house.

And then I was like, I'm still not taking responsibility for it. Like now I'm just pawning it off on like, well, I only have to do this because of this thing. It's like my inability to charge appropriately for my services, I think has been like my biggest downfall, my entire freelance career. And part of what leads me wanting to go back to full time work and why I have my three to four year cycle of applying for jobs that no one wants to give me is because I want the financial stability I want.

to agree on a number that's based on like industry standards and then be done talking about money But yeah, it's always been really hard But I feel like then I just started saying well now I have to do it because i'm a mom and because i'm providing instead of being like Also, because you've been doing this for 15, 20 years.

Like, also because the value that it brings to their business is X, Y, or Z. It's like, you know, I'm trying to do more value based pricing and less hourly stuff. because that's not been helping me.

Kate Christy: I think it's hard to value or see your value for what it really is. I've said this, I don't know how many times, but I think as creatives, when we have this innate ability to do something, right?

It's really hard to see it at the same value as someone who absolutely cannot do that thing. Right. Yeah. They're like, Oh, my gosh, I have to go find someone to do this thing for me because there's no way in hell I can do this thing. Yeah. And then you go to that person who's like, Oh, that's easy peasy.

Right? Like, building a website. No problem. Got you. Right. But you put someone who has absolutely no, skill set in putting a website together. They're like, Oh my gosh, like, I see why people pay people a lot of money to do this because this is hard. Right. Yeah. You know, the better we get at things, if we're not keeping that, thought of you are good, you are experienced, you are valuable, you are worthy, like front and center in our minds.

Right. It can very easily go to, Oh, that's something that's easy for me to do. Or, Oh, that's something I can do quickly. And it's like, it doesn't matter if you can do it fast. Right.

Annica Lydenberg: Totally.

Kate Christy: you can do it fast because you've put in the time, the energy, the effort, the, upskilling to be able to do this thing fast for people.

Yeah. And it's so easy to, and wonder if people who are in different professions feel this way. I don't know, but feel like creative and like executing on service.

Annica Lydenberg: Yeah.

Kate Christy: I'd be curious to see if like a doctor feels like if they, as they get better, if they're like, Oh, this is easy.

It shouldn't cost this much. Probably not.

Annica Lydenberg: Yeah. Like what lawyer is out there being like, I don't know, maybe. Since I can, you've been studying case law for a, 15 years and now you have all these things like at the top of your mind, and it's like, yeah. What you're paying for with someone's hourly rate is the years that it took them to get, to be able to do something fast.

Kate Christy: Mm-hmm .

Annica Lydenberg: Like, I,had that once with a client who was, I don't get this often, but the, oh, it's not gonna take you that long. Mm-hmm . And, Of course, I said nothing. I think maybe I offered to come down by a little bit because I don't feel like engaging with, people in those stories, but then I called my friend and I was like, Oh my goodness, you wouldn't believe it.

They said this. And what I wanted to say was, what I didn't say was, yeah, I'm not going to charge you for the eight years that it took me to like, Developed this style of lettering. They're like, oh, it's gonna be so fast. It'll only take you like 15 20 minutes Cuz like that's the drawback you post videos of you doing stuff online and people are like look how quickly you can do that I'm like first of all It's time lapse and then it's 10x speed, and I don't take video of the second coat and the third coat because it doesn't look like anything's happening.

But it looks like I painted this really fast, but that doesn't mean I don't know. And then, yeah, there is the, I'm not charging you for the 8 years, 10 years that it took me to learn this skill. So, like, we're gonna go ahead and go with the original quote, but I'll come down by a teeny bit.

Kate Christy: Mm hmm. Well, and something else you said about, you said industry standard.

And I think that's something else that if you're not firm in your boundaries or, you know, in explaining the process and what you do, right, like it's a wild west for creative services, right? There's no rule book. There's no guideline for the value of a service. Some people are out here. Charging hourly, some people are here charging project based, some people are out here charging value based, like, combination, like, there's all kinds of different pricing strategies, there's people at all kinds of different levels, and to the consumer, to the client, all of that stuff is not, that's just, like, not in their awareness, like, nor should it be, right?

So they may have worked with a really junior person who did a good job on something like, Oh, well, they only charged me like 30 an hour for this. Like, why are you charging me 5, 000 to do this thing that feels pretty similar because there's that gap in just the awareness of, what it is to be a creative service provider, the work, the time, the energy that goes into style, developing skill.

Like, It's so all over the place it's hard to put that on your client to be like, well, you don't know this, you know, and like, we will fall into a rut sometimes of like fussing about like, oh my gosh, can you believe, but it's like, I can believe because they don't know, right, like they're not a creative service provider.

Like they're not in my shoes and it's my job to educate them and to explain to them, this is why it costs this. This is how long the process takes, or this is how long it took me to get to this point in time to be able to deliver this to you. And like, one thing that I'm really struggling with right now, pricing wise, like, and I'm in the same boat as you, like, this has always been such a frustrating thing for me to price, to feel like I'm pricing myself in a way that's fair for my client, but also without me putting my mind in their wallet and being like, okay, like, you're the business owner, like, you're making the decisions, like, Price your services according to what you need them to be, not what you think, your clients can afford, or what you think is fair to them.

And, is that I have, am slowly transitioning into shortening the time frame for brand identity and websites. And before, I was like, there's no way I can deliver on a shorter timeline. Like, I need all that time. And like, good design takes time. But becoming a mom and juggling everything, what I'm realizing is happening is I'm out of like a scarcity and fear trying to pad in more time to things so that I don't get caught not holding up my end of the deal or not delivering on a timetable that I had promised them because I'm like padding in snow days, padding in sick days, padding in all this stuff and But what I've come to realize is like, no, you can actually build a totally custom, really cool website in one to two weeks.

Like, you can do that. I've seen me do that. I can do that. And so I'm like, why am I, spreading this out over four to six weeks when I can, condense the time? And I'm like, okay, logically, I get this. This makes sense. But then I go to the pricing part of it, and I'm like, okay, should something that takes A shorter amount of time costs less money should cost more money.

I get in my head around like the perceived value of time versus deliverables, you know, and it's like, well, you can offer this now. Like you couldn't offer this four years ago because you weren't that good at what you're doing now. You weren't that fast. You didn't have these systems in the muscle memory in place.

but now you can, and it's like, don't sweep all that under the rug and be like, oh, like, a week worth of my time should equal this, right? And it's just, you can really get in your own way about it. but yeah, I think that going back to your comment about, it shouldn't take you that long.

And it's like, that's irrelevant.

Annica Lydenberg: Yes, yes, Yeah, it's hard to be able to advocate for that and remind yourself of that. Like I tend to get stopped in my tracks by comments like that. I get a little like stunt and I'm like, well, I mean, I see where you're coming from, but then also no. Um,

Kate Christy: yeah, it's a lot.

Also, I think that, going back to, they just don't have the awareness of what we do, right? Like, some people, are like, oh, they're just like, boop, boop, boop, magic, like, behind the scenes on a computer, right? And some of it's that. Yeah. But some of it is I'm troubleshooting something that I'm trying to code for four hours with no resolution.

Annica Lydenberg: Yeah. For

Kate Christy: no reason. And it could be something. It's stupid that once I realized it, I'm like, Oh, Kate, that was rough.

Annica Lydenberg: Yeah. But you're not charging your client more because it took you four hours to figure out like, where you inverted a, you did the wrong parentheses facing the wrong way or something, you know, like you're not charging your client for that time.

So why would you? That, like, they're still getting the same website, so why would you charge them less if you don't make any mistakes? And it does go faster.

Kate Christy: Yeah, very true.

Annica Lydenberg: it's very hard to rationalize those two things. Like, you don't see enough, I mean, maybe that's not true. I don't know. There are plenty of examples of value based pricing.

I heard a great question that you can ask your clients, in talking about budget stuff, where you say, like, two things. Like, number one, what is this worth to you? Which is so different from saying, what is your budget?

Kate Christy: Yep.

Annica Lydenberg: Like, what is this worth for you? And what are you hoping that this is going to do for your business?

Um, and so then they're seeing the value. So then when you follow up, they're less likely to come back and push back on price if like they're considering everything that they're going to get out of this and they're not just thinking about like, well, how much of your time am I getting? They're thinking, what am I getting for my business?

So I like that a great deal. And I would imagine like with website stuff, if you're like, well, if you don't have a new portfolio, how can you expect to get new work? So it's like, if you're willing to invest this amount in a portfolio, imagine the kinds of clients that you're going to get. Imagine what the return is coming back.

I think that's. Spent in one of my many 8, 000 crazies, I started working with a business coach and I've tried a couple of different business coaches and I, really liked this one for like the first four sessions. And then I reached a point where I'm like, I just want someone to tell me what to do and it turns out that coaches never do that.

So, got a lot out of the first four sessions, but one of the things was, at the time I was, Dealing with some very, like, high conflict co parenting stuff and, like, trying to figure out how to charge for my work and, like, support myself and my kid. And I felt very, very weak. I felt very beat down.

I felt very, like, pushed around. And she said, when was the last time you felt strong? And I was like, ugh. Well, before I had my kid, before I got pregnant, I was like going to kickboxing every week and going rock climbing every week. And I felt really powerful. And like climbing on a wall made me feel not only physically strong, but also like you're trying and failing over and over and over again.

And that's such a good practice for my brain because I've always been so hesitant. And she says, okay, Why don't you join the climbing gym now? And I'm like, I don't have the time and I don't have the money. And she's like, how much does it cost? I was like, it's 125 a month. And I'm like, totally just blown away by how much that is.

And then she was like, do you think that if you felt stronger, the next time you sent out a quote to a client, you could like, I don't want 125 to their total bill and I was like, Ooh, yeah, I could definitely do that. So like, I'm thinking about the value. So it's like 125 a month sounded like a lot for me to spend on myself in that moment.

But then I was like, When I was forced to think about it in terms of value based pricing, I'm like, but if what it does is make me stronger and more confident, that's gonna yield even more coming back in. If I'm able to show up for work, show up for, like an hour and a half less of work that day, but show up with more confidence when I send out my proposals and my quotes.

Kate Christy: Mm hmm. It's wild how we can talk ourselves out of those things so easily. Yes. Yeah, it's absolutely wild and I think like two things that I've consistently talked myself out of would be Going and working elsewhere like going to a coffee shop and working which that's my New Year's resolution is to go Physically to a different space.

Annica Lydenberg: Yeah. And

Kate Christy: work. because I'm like, Oh, I had to pack up all my stuff. I want to lose time in transit and I only have so much time because kids get off the bus, blah, blah, blah. no, like the change of environment is going to be good for you. Yeah. Right? Like getting out into public, which you don't go out in very often will be lovely.

And also walking, getting up and walking and taking the time to do that. And that's something that I have developed as a habit. there's a great path by the water on the way to and fro, taking my daughter to daycare. And I'm like, it's right here. Just go. And you get to bird watch at the same time, which is my, secret hobby.

Not secret. I just told y'all. but it's like, why am I talking myself out of these things when I know when I go and walk, I feel better. I'm much more productive. I'm in a much better mental space. And, I'm taking maybe 30 to 45 minutes out of my day to do it, like, that's the additional time.

And it's like, I waste so much time adding shit to my cart. Yes. Like, throughout the day, like, doing stuff that is not productive, is not, or scrolling, right? Like things that are, you know, kind of putting me on a different path mentally, and creatively. but yeah, it's, we can really easily talk ourselves out of those things.

That will make us feel good, put us in a better mental space and also like free up for client work, right? Like we think like, Oh, like taking this money and taking this time out of my day, it's so silly in the, in the grand scheme of things.

Annica Lydenberg: Yeah.

by limiting ourself from doing those kinds of things to take care of ourselves.

We are not. In fact, saving and conserving the things that we think that we're saving and conserving, you know,

Kate Christy: very true. you said something in about the, what is it worth to you, like those, questions and it just hit me. That the time that it takes to do any project is so irrelevant once it's launched.

Yeah. Like. Yeah. It's so silly. I've never had this thought before. That like whether it takes 15 minutes to do something, whether it takes six weeks to do something at the end, they have that thing that they. Strongly felt they needed for their brand, for their business. Wow. That was like a mental explosion for me right now.

Yeah. That like, thinking about the time, the energy, like pricing. This is why people value based price. I'm having an epiphany, people. Yeah.

Annica Lydenberg: And I mean, if you also, if someone doesn't feel like it's going to increase. They're business substantially than like, is it really something that you actually need or is it just something that you kind of want and like, I'm not here to cater to something that you just kind of want.

I want to work with you on something that you need.

Kate Christy: Well, okay. So I was recently having a conversation with one of my friends, Kate, and he's actually been on the podcast before. He's a wonderful human being. and we were talking about, type of person that I've been working with is that new early stage, right?

And so there's a lot of, I've been there, I know what that's like, I know how little money there is for, X, Y, and Z. And he's like, that's none of your business. And I was like, what? Come again? And he's like, no, like if they come to you and they say, hey, I need a logo. Hey, I need a website. Hey, I need this doodad.

Like. It's your job to guide them and, through the process and make sure that what you're giving them at the end of it is going to benefit them. He's like, but it's not your job to say, oh, no, you don't need this. You need to go somewhere else. It's like if they're feeling very strongly that they need this thing and they want to work with you, then it's your job.

To do the thing, to make the thing for them. And I was like, oh, well, what a thought, right? Where we get into this, like, caretaker mode of, Oh, like, you're just starting now. Like, you don't have a lot of capital. Like, maybe you should just, like, DIY a logo. And then, like, buy one of my templates.

And it's like, no, if they come to you being like, I want a custom website, give them a custom website. Make it worth their time. Make it worth their while. But it's not your job to, make that decision. that was another, like, Oh, I've been putting my mind in their business, in their wallet, in, what they think they need.

And,

Annica Lydenberg: I think that that's something else to, like, keep top of mind.

Yeah. And also, you don't know, did someone just leave their incredibly high powered job with like some. Two years severance package and they're like, I really want to, I've always wanted to start a chocolate company and now I can and it's been my passion and like, yes, I want the website and yes, I want the logo.

But meanwhile, it's like, well, you don't know yet what your distribution is going to be and you can probably get away with some simple packaging until whatever. Nope. Nope. Nope. you just don't know what circumstances other people are coming from. And yeah. My assumption is always that everyone else is as careful with their money as I am.

And that's definitely part of my resistance to, pricing myself well, is I'm always, like, trying to figure out, well, what would I be willing to pay for this?

Kate Christy: But it's

Annica Lydenberg: not my thing.

Kate Christy: Right? But that's where you're like, I can do this thing. Yes! You know, like, I would never pay someone that much money to do this thing.

Totally. Totally. Oh man. we're almost out of time. But before we depart, I would love to ask you a few, kind of like rapid ish fire questions. Sure. So what's some advice you would give your younger self, your fresh, fresh new baby self in the throes of, Running your business and taking care of this new baby.

Annica Lydenberg: Sorry, that's rapid fire and I'm about to give you a long answer.

Kate Christy: Whatever, go for it. I've been,

Annica Lydenberg: I've been thinking a lot about this. I was gonna do like a little video about this. This is one of my like most challenging questions that people like to ask. It's like, what's advice that you would give for your younger self?

I want my younger self to pipe down in my current brain. I feel like. Like, in talking about this idea of authenticity versus acceptance, sometimes I feel like I'm trying to do things to impress my younger self. this is what my younger self thought that I would be doing. This is what my younger self thought, had expectations of.

So, I'm trying to do things to appease this, like, 30 something year old person that I'm not anymore. And so, I don't know. I guess my feeling is like, you make the decisions that are right for you, younger self, and you let me make the decisions that are right for me right now. I want less talking to my younger self and less of my younger self talking to me.

Like, that's, yeah, my advice is pipe down. You only know what's good for you in this moment and, like, only you know that. And, like, future you can't tell you what to do and past you shouldn't be telling you what to do.

Kate Christy: Yeah, I love that. That's good. what is something that you would, like, if you were, like, Child free for a weekend.

What would be your, this is what I'm going to do.

Annica Lydenberg: Like a thousand piece puzzle and then another thousand piece puzzle. I just want to take over the whole table. And I just want it to be a puzzle and I want people to just like. Show up with food and hang out and sit at the table while I do a puzzle.

That's what I want.

Kate Christy: I love that. One of my favorite things that I get to do with my friends without children is we will go physically to the same space, like we'll go away for a week together and we will all just sit and read and be quiet and like not talk to each other. Like, we're just like, this is reading time.

Everyone's just reading by themselves, but all together. Yeah. what's something that you've had on the back burner? That you're like, it's time to get it off. it's time to move to the front burner and focus on it.

Annica Lydenberg: Yeah. Ugh. so I kind of half launched it last year, which is this, new.

Whatever, a personal project called, Noteworthy Life, that's all about the post its that I leave everywhere that we all do, and I just feel like after every therapy session, after every Mel Robbins podcast, I've got a new post it note somewhere, I've got one on my desk at work, so, Yeah, so I've started doing larger drawings of crumpled post it notes with these phrases on them.

and then I've done a couple large murals, like eight by eight, 10 by 10 murals, of ginormous post it notes. So it's about figuring out how to like rewire the messages in your brain that aren't helping you. And like this idea that you need to see it all the time. So right now I have one by my front door that says happiness starts when you say it does.

Mm hmm. I love that. Just like, do you want to be happy today? Great. You should choose that then.

Kate Christy: You

Annica Lydenberg: should decide that.

Kate Christy: Speaking of our good friend, Mel, one of the most recent, things that was on her podcast was like, think she said her grandmother said it was like, whether you think you can or you think you can't, you're right.

Yeah. And it was like, yeah, like choose the positive thing. Like let's not, let's stop choosing the negative. Yes.

Annica Lydenberg: Yes. So I did the thing where I started making the work, which is the fun part, and then I'm like, oof, I'm busy. And then, and then that's the end of that. So the thing that's on the back burner is, like, sharing that more with the world, focusing on, like, trying to get that out and, sparking more interesting conversations.

Kate Christy: Mm hmm. That's always the hardest thing as a creative, right? It's like, we have the idea, like, we can do the thing, but then it's like, okay, this exists, but like, now I've got to, like, Or tell people about it or create the system to sell the thing.

Oh my gosh. I have so enjoyed our time together chatting about life, business, kids, all that stuff. but before we, before we part ways, we tell everyone where they can connect with you online. Like if you have anything exciting, like you started talking about the noteworthy life, like you have any.

thing exciting going on that you want to share with people? Like, , now's your moment to plug all that stuff.

Annica Lydenberg: All right. well, I do work under the name Dirty Bandits. You can find me on Dirty Bandits or as Dirty Bandits on all of the things. and I also run a mural arts nonprofit called You Are Not Alone Murals, which is a mural project, inspiring artists to create work in their own communities, all with the same message, all in the same color palette.

And this idea of repetition of the message is meant to help people start to feel the message more deeply. And we also share individual artists stories that have created the murals, with conversations particularly focused around mental health. So the idea is to destigmatize conversations around mental health, for artists and for their communities.

So I would love for people to check that out, and if they have the means, to paint a wall.

Kate Christy: Lovely. Well, we'll put all that in the show notes for everyone get to and check out. Awesome. Thank you so much, Anika.

Annica Lydenberg: Thank you. This has been so great and I'm so grateful for your podcast and that it exists. I feel like every time I do the deep dive on what do I need to do with my business?

It's full of stories that are setting unrealistic expectations for me. And I listened to your podcast and it reminds me to be patient and be kind with myself and, with all the other. Parents working out there.

Kate Christy: I love that half the time. I'm like, this is not good advice. I shouldn't be putting this out in the world.

But the other half of me is like, this is real. This is what's actually happening.

Annica Lydenberg: It's like in yoga where they're like, okay, now do this. And you're like, that doesn't work. And then they say, but if that's not accessible to you right now, like you can come down to your knees and you can do like, you can, you don't have to do the full bind.

I'm like, What is the like half bind version of all of this business advice? Like, I want that version. I can't I love that. I'm not accessible right now because I have a five year old.

Kate Christy: The modified, the modified version. Oh, I love

Annica Lydenberg: that. I want the modified pose for all of the business tactics. I'm like, it can change.

Like, just what's accessible to you today. I love it when the yoga teacher just says, do what feels right today. And I'm like, Oh my God, today, I just want to be in child's pose for like another 10 minutes. Thanks.

Kate Christy: Yeah.

I love that.